Donna Druchunas's Blog

Well, gee. Patterns free me from having to think about knitting, which constitutes a break from my writing/publishing job that requires constant thinking. So I'm sorry to hear that you are forswearing patterns to encourage knitters "to develop their skills." However, you will no doubt be pleased to hear that I wouldn't dream of phoning or writing or emailing an author, editor, or publisher about a mistake in a pattern, unless the mistake happened to be in a complex stitch pattern. I am very proud of having figured out how to knit Nora Gaughan's "Mandalay" pullover, which gets my prize for the worst instructions ever published in a commercial pattern.

Posted by Lynne E. at Saturday, December 15, 2007 10:19:53

Hi Lynn,

You'll be glad to know that I do have one book in the works that is all lace patterns by different designers. I have no publication date set yet, but I do have a publisher and the projects are coming in this month, so it's quite exciting.

I actually like knitting from patterns, too, for the very reason you stated. I don't really mind hearing from readers, it's just the idea that there are errors out there lurking in the darkness that disturbs my sleep. Maybe ignorance, in this case, is bliss?

And I may change my mind after I get a break! :-)

Posted by donna at Saturday, December 15, 2007 10:25:11

I have the same sort of paralyzing frustration. For me, it's almost not worth trying to sell my patterns independantly because even my free patterns garner some pretty vitriolic responses when a mistake is found.

Just the other day I got an email to the effect of "I'm very disappointed with the pattern I bought from you, both my daughter and I tried to match the gauge and couldn't get both the row and stitch gauge. How disappointing and frustrating, now we need to recalculate the whole thing.:

This is a paraphrase, but what can I say? The pattern has been out for several years and no one has ever told me they couldn't match gauge and many people have sent me pics of their finished items. I suspect it's that their purling is looser than their knitting and their swatch is worked flat for an in-the-round piece but when I suggested as much, I got no response. I suspect they expected nothing short of a refund.

I'm sure it's even harder for you as the person who is hired to catch the mistakes. I don't blame you for wanting to take some time off and I understand the distinction you are making here. It's not that you are opposed to the current paradigm of pattern writing, but you would also like to see people less locked to the literal interpretation of a pattern and learn to adapt when mistakes happen.

Posted by Marnie at Saturday, December 15, 2007 12:22:26

I get down about this stuff too. I think I've asked twice in my life to find out errata for something I couldn't fix on my own, and I never got any "joy" from asking the company or designer. Problem solving on my own is always a better experience.

Recently, I've felt very heartened by ravelry and reading blogs. Many people enjoy my patterns, change them and rework them without me. Compared to the emails I get, just a very small percentage of people are obsessing because something went wrong. I've even had success lately in asking bloggers to take down posts that criticize my work when I've approached them. (In a nice way, I ask why they didn't email me, I give about 14 ways to fix their issues, and then I ask whether, if they'd followed my actual instructions, they think it would have come out better?!) There's a culture of complaint in our society, and I like pointing out solutions and trying to cut the whining off at the knees. It sometimes works--but thinking seems to be low on the list of people's leisure time activities these days!

Posted by Joanne at Sunday, December 16, 2007 10:11:25

Hi Ladies, interesting perspectives here. I think for me it's probably just my "I get bored and frustrated with my work every few years and need to switch to something completely different." I always tend to blame the specifics, but it's a pattern that I've been living for my entire adult life. You think I'd figure out the pattern eventually, instead of complaining about the specifics. But no. I guess I'm just slow. :-)

Posted by donna at Sunday, December 16, 2007 11:25:22

I do get frustrated when I knit a complicated lace pattern and the corrections supplied by the publisher need corrections. Sometimes I can fix it, other times it's not possible. Sweaters, socks, hats, etc. I do from memory. The sock pattern my mother taught me 60 years ago still works as well as any of the more fancily constructed patterns. Give me 5 DPs and I'm in business. I also learned quickly to adapt patterns when I first came to the US and used German patterns without being able to get the yarn or needles. I remember the times when I had to buy 2 sets of DPs because they only came four to a set. Many times people ask me what size needles I use. Most of the time, I have no idea. I look at the yarn, look at the needles which are not occupied with knitting and choose instinctively. I appreciate your patterns, Donna and have a merry Christmas or Happy Holidays

Posted by Renate S at Sunday, December 16, 2007 19:28:23

Thanks Renate.

It's frustrating for the authors and editors too, but as far as I can tell there's no way around it because, in most cases, everyone is doing the best they can to make sure things are accurate.

I like to be able to make things from memory, too. Soemtimes when I'm designing something like an Aran sweater it takes quite a bit of fiddling and thinking, but most knitted items are pretty simple once you learn the general shape of the item and the basic techniques involved in making the different parts of the item.

Sweaters are really the easiest, after scarves and hats, unless you're making something with tailored shaping or dressmaker details (in which case you really need some background in sewing or fashion design or a heckuva lot of knitting experience). Socks are probably the hardest to get started on because of the heels can be hard to figure out before you make a few pairs.

Posted by donna at Monday, December 17, 2007 07:35:25

I absolutely agree with you on the wish that all knitters could be thinking knitters. But, as a low-budget independent designer, I do appreciate a quick word from a knitter who finds an error in one of my patterns. Since I sell pdfs online, it's a simple matter to fix the error and all new copies go out corrected.

I'd much rather hear from the person than find out I'm the last one to know because the knitter has posted cautionary notes in online forums. In cases where there wasn't an actual error, but rather, misunderstanding, I'd rather have a chance to set the person straight than read it online 6 months later.

Posted by elizabeth morrison at Monday, December 17, 2007 09:47:34

Elizabeth, hi. Thanks for the note! It's not that I don't like to hear from readers who find errors, it's just that those errors are out there lurking in the darkness that stresses me out! :-) I totally agree with you that I'd rather talk to a reader personally than have them posting about errors on lists or forums where I might not see their message.

Posted by donna at Monday, December 17, 2007 11:23:19

The corker is when something goes weird electronically and puts an error in a pattern that WAS correct on its final proofing. It's happened. I love computer layout, but this is a problem the old systems didn't have. We do the best we can, and we hope that people also have brains and some independence, as you describe.

Posted by Deborah Robson at Monday, December 17, 2007 22:33:30

Yeah, that's the worst and then it truly is "nobody's fault"! :-)

Posted by donna at Tuesday, December 18, 2007 07:41:21

This is partly why I chose self-publishing over publishing elsewhere (for the most part). Still, there is a lot of 'crossing fingers and hoping for the best' going on. It is just a little crazy how neurotic knitting design can be.

When I knit other designers' patterns, I am usually trying to capture their particular vision to a tee so I like to follow things exactly as written (except in the case of yarn substitution, sometimes); but, I know this is not really what the end product is all about for many knitters.

I think, however, the early desire in many of us to refine patterns to our particular liking, or the ability to recognize goofs in patterns and just fix it and move along rather than obsessing over it and the fact that a goof exists, is probably the first inkling of being a designer or potential designer, and not everyone has it or the desire/ability to think beyond the pattern. I saw this a lot when I worked in a yarn shop - it just doesn't click for a lot of knitters how things are constructed.

On another note, I just bought Ethnic Knitting Discovery - great book, Donna! Not sure when I'll have time to play with any of the concepts in the book but I hope to find time before I'm retired. ;)

Posted by lori at Tuesday, December 18, 2007 08:58:52

Hi Lori, thanks for the comments.

I can't even imagine the amount of work going into self publishing. Plus, I'm a mediocre graphic designer and I want my books to be better than what I can create for the layout and design and illustrations. But I completely understand how you'd want more control over the entire process.

I, unfortunately, am almost never able to make anything (especially sweaters) exactly from the pattern. I almost always wan to tink with the neckline, the armhole, the sleeve, or something. I do better with making accessories just as shown, but I still find myself wanting to tweak things or change them based on the materials I have in my stash.

It takes a while to learn about the shapes of garments and accessories. New knitters really can't be expected to just automatically know these things, unless they have a background in sewing, which most don't these days. But I think a lot of the pattern books written for new knitters leave out part of the important knowledge. They do explain how to follow a pattern, but they tend to skim over understanding the schematic drawings and learning about the basic construction of garments. It really is important.

Well, TTYL. Gotta go work now.

Posted by donna at Tuesday, December 18, 2007 09:33:31

Errors are a fact of life. I play the piano for church, and every week I tell myself, it's not IF, it is a matter of WHEN I am going to make a mistake.

As a knitter/designer/editor myself, I know that there is a lot that goes into the making of a pattern. My personal opinion is that we try to be too specific in our patterns (unlike, say, Elizabeth Zimmerman) and so when there is an error because somehow our being so specific wasn't clear enough, people get their undies all in a bundle about it whereas if they were just looking at the general pattern and got the general idea, they could figure out what to do at that one point of decision and still have hours and hours of mindless knitting to enjoy.

I also can tell stories of finding errors in patterns and, for the sake of the author or publisher, letting them know so they can correct it and as few people will notice the error as possible. One time when I did this, I had an author argue with me and try to convince me that stockinette and garter have the same ROW gauge. They may have the same STITCH gauge, but they certainly do not have the same row gauge. When I see that designer's stuff offered, I cringe, because, after that experience, I find it very difficult to have any respect for her. I mean, I know she has nice stuff and all, but I would not want to try to knit anything she wrote or help her save face and fix a small error. Forgive me...

Posted by Tana at Thursday, December 20, 2007 15:19:46

Hi Tana, thanks for the note. Some publishers have guidelines that require minute details in patterns, but I agree with you that it's best to be less specific in some cases. I think that's a big problem with most of the crochet patterns that are out today, actually. Crochet is SO easy, and the patterns are SO hard to follow because every line is detailed, down to the point of telling you when to make a turning chain. There is just too much opportunity for errors to get introduced.

The thing about row gauge is that it's really weird. There's no way to tell if anyone will ever be able to get the same row gauge as another knitter. I don't know exactly why this happens, but I think it has something to do with the different ways we all hold and tension the yarn. That's why I rarely include row gauge in my patterns, and do all length measurements in inches instead of by counting rows.

Stockinette and garter don't have the same row gauge, though -- unless you really really stretch out the garter stitch. St stitch is usually about 5/7 sts to rows, in single color, while in multiple colors sometimes the sts and rows per inch are almost equal. Garter stitch usually has about twice as many rows than stitches per inch, but as you get looser -- and especially when using laceweight yarn with larger needles -- that ratio just falls apart.

Posted by donna at Thursday, December 20, 2007 17:02:31

You write a thinking woman's knitting book, just like Elizabeth Zimmemann or Priscilla Gibson-Roberts. This is the kind of bk I like. I like a good idea, and sometimes a template, and then I can go and do my thing. I stopped following patterns since 1972, when Knitting Without Tears came out, and you are carrying on the tradition.

Yay, you!

Posted by ruth at Thursday, December 20, 2007 18:51:19

I think that interpretation of instructions can be so different between knitters that it's impossible for a pattern to be "clear" to everyone. I just recently learned to look at the big picture when doing a project and not sweat the small stuff. It took me a long time to get to this place though. I agree that being a "thinking knitter" is important.

Posted by Cindy at Friday, December 21, 2007 07:45:19

Is this all a part of an industry that seeks growth and expansion, so it wants to appeal to a larger audience? I'm not always certain that this is a good thing. You end up trying to teach people to knit who can't tie their shoes or balance a checkbook. Sorry, I think those are both life skills that any adult entitled to vote should be able to deal with. (They can skip tying shoes if physically disabled - but maybe it should be a pre-test for taking someone on as a knitting student.)

Another facet of this is the whole secret pal, sock swap, sock club thing. It's a mania. Do people actually look at what they're paying for a pair of socks in the sock club arena?

Posted by Iris at Friday, December 21, 2007 08:33:59

I'm going to gently suggest all you designers who are so disenchanted with the people who knit your patterns step back a moment and think like a knitter.

I know you're trying to be nice and positive in many ways, calling for freedom for all knitters, but some people don't work that way. They need that step-by-step and they can't think around it. Are you calling them stupid (because, really, most engineers I know are methodical like this and they are far from stupid)? Are you saying they shouldn't be allowed to knit?

Some people do work that way just fine, but if they've picked up your pattern to explore new territory, they may not have the strength of conviction to make their own corrections. Maybe they will someday when they've mastered the skills they came to your pattern to try to learn. Do you wish to deny them the chance to get to that point of bravery? Would you rather nobody knit your patterns until they're expert?

I'm very daunted and disappointed by this kind of elitist, narrow-minded blurt. You have a right to vent and you have a right to your druthers, but I have a right to not like them.

It's frustrating that you are so adamant that you would never contact an author/editor/publisher on a pattern, you'd just fix it yourself and keep your mouth shut. That is so counter-productive to the whole knitting community (particularly simple knitters like myself that will now have to experience that up-in-the-night angst over whether we should or should have brought a pattern error to the attention of someone who could correct it for future knitters) I don't even know where to begin.

Iris? It is beyond snotty to say people should have to take some arbitrary IQ test before they're allowed to learn to knit. Shame on you. I can think of about a thousand situations where being able to balance a checkbook isn't an asset in knitting. Enthusiasm and a desire to knit are all the prerequisite anyone should need to find a place in the knitting community.

Posted by Marin at Friday, December 21, 2007 10:09:35

I'm not a designer and have no aspiration to become one but I wanted to add another view. I'm a self-taught knitter with 21 years of experience and I think that's what makes it easier to me to figure out a pattern. While it's nice to switch to auto pilot and not think about anything and have everything written out, my opinion is that if it's worth doing, then it's worth taking extra steps before you begin: read the directions, work your swatch, make your changes, etc. I've been in classes and shops where students were outraged the designer didn't include at least 12 different size ranges "to fit (their) body" and were insulted when it was suggested this would be a great opportunity to learn how to make the design flattering for themselves. The expectation is that everything should be written out so they don't have to think about anything.

I was in a class a few years ago when my fellow student turned to me and said she didn't understand why her sample didn't look like everyone else's. I took a look at it and pointed out that her knitting technique was Eastern-style and she needed to compensate for twisted stitches so they sat correctly. It took about 2 minutes to show her what to do. Her response was "this is the way I knit and I shouldn't be expected to change". Well, if you don't understand the relationship of the stitches to the pattern and don't bother to think about what you're doing, is it really fair to blame the designer or the instructor? No one was criticizing the way she knit as wrong, but there's a time when you have to stop and ask yourself what changes you need to make so something works. Another comment I've heard a lot is "oh no, I can't make that. Those colors don't look good on me. Why can't they make this up in (insert color here)?" Seriously. Then there are those that think the designer should be available 24/7 whether or not they paid for the pattern. I stopped taking classes a long time ago because the arrogance ("I've been knitting for (x) years and you can't teach me anything I don't know") and just plain refusal of some knitters to think a little bit ("I aid (x) for this and it should tell me what do next"). And there were those who have to second-guess everything and were disruptive to the whole experience. ("Why do I have to cast on like that? I don't like that cast on.") It's one thing to ask if what's happening in the design is correct; it's another to trash a designer because you didn't want to spend a couple of minutes checking your work and realized that you've been off gauge after knitting 4 inches and didn't feel like measuring again.

Personally, I like the fact that more people are knitting and posting what they've designed. It's nice when they're free but I have no problem paying for someone's work. Some of the designs are very clever, some are terrible, and knitting is still evolving. What I think some people miss is that everything that's available isn't flattering to everyone, just as all fashion isn't flattering. If the design isn't working, well just rip it out and make something that does look good.

Donna, I'm sorry about your experience and look forward to what you and the other designers come up with in the future. You will never please everyone and to attempt to do it just isn't worth losing sleep over it. I know because I've been there.

Posted by Madison at Friday, December 21, 2007 12:33:16

Post-script. I forgot to mention that if some knitters don't want to think while using knitting patterns, whatever will they do with the Japanese patterns that just have a photo of the finished design and a schematic? Boggles the mind.

Posted by Madison at Friday, December 21, 2007 12:34:51

First, love the blog. Love your book. You are an awesome knitter and should be extremely proud of yourself for your skill and devotion to what you do.

I am a very new knitter (about 3 months) who is self taught. I am also an engineer. I learned long long ago that, frankly, it isn't worth it to get worked up about errors or mistakes, both mine and other people's, especially in a hobby that I do for relaxation. However, we all reach that particular point at different times in our lives.

And, I rarely follow a pattern step by step. Mostly, I look at the picture, check the gauge and run with it. If I make a mistake or the designer made a mistake, oh well, it certainly isn't the end of the world and I decide whether or not I can live with said mistake.

If I can't, then I fix it and move on. If I can, then I leave it. Unless it is a huge glaring mistake, such as a few wrong side purl stiches in the middle of a sweater of stockinette, then I can live with it, since most people wouldn't even notice.

My rule of thumb is the "10, 10, 10" rule. Will this matter in 10 minutes? 10 weeks? 10 years? Once you think about 10 years, most stuff fades in importance!

PS. And, to Marin - If an engineer can only function by blindly following directions and not being able to "wing it" then I have to say they have to go back to engineering school. Engineers are taught to design and think for themselves - methodical does not mean that a person can't think around problems.

Posted by Stephani at Friday, December 21, 2007 13:08:19

Feel free to voice your opinions on this topic, but no name calling please!

Donna

Posted by donna at Friday, December 21, 2007 14:51:36

No amount of editing can catch every error, but there are some out there who live to call attention to a mistake. At least with a pattern there is an opportunity to try and post a correction, but that doesn't help you lose any less sleep.

I would be willing to bet that most of the knitters out there who knit a pattern with no deviation are the knitters who are repeatedly disappointed in the outcome. Once I had learned my way around a sweater, I rarely knit to the pattern exactly. I have learned a lot since I started knitting, mainly things like which collars will irritate me, and which yarns will not stand up to my lifestyle, what styles make me look like a bloated slob, and what would ultimately lie in a drawer unworn no matter how perfectly knit.

Knitting is not like shopping. You can't pop into the dressing room and discover in a minute whether or not something is flattering. You only discover it after weeks of work. At that point it is very easy to blame a designer. But if you pay attention, and maybe take a few notes, and learn to spot a potential problem then your disappointments get farther and farther apart.

Posted by carlarey at Friday, December 21, 2007 15:42:36

I find it interesting that I get the most questions from people who got a pattern for free, rather than those who paid for it. And I must say that about 99% of those questions could be answered with a simple google search. I seriously HAVE gotten an email that asked, "what does k mean?" I keep trying to encourage people to think for themselves but it doesn't seem to be working. I do wish people would do it just a little though or use one of the resources that are out there for how to do a certain decrease for example. I don't mean to be grumpy, but I'd really rather spend my time designing rather than answering emails.

Posted by kate at Friday, December 21, 2007 16:27:18

Wow, interesting thread here. I've been knitting for 3 or 4 years now. I wanted to do socks on 2 circs. Got the pattern from a debbie macomber book, written by cat bordhi.

Got annoyed/frustrated/mad at the heel. Never having made socks before, this heel turn had me turned around. Emailed the publisher of the book, it was a leisure arts book. She emailed me back, indicating that the pattern was right, I was not. I eventually found another knitter who understood the pattern.

I just didn't know. Not the designer or publishers fault, for sure. If it had been a mistake on their part, I'd likely have been happier at first, lol. Not have felt like such a dolt!

Posted by justine at Saturday, December 22, 2007 14:36:21

Justine,

Socks are one of those knitting things that are REALLY hard to learn from a book. You can't just imagine it and knit it in your head. Even though I've made many socks and do tech editing, I have to knit the heels of socks to test them when I have sock patterns to edit.

Do don't feel like a dolt! This is just one of those things that's oh-so-much easier to learn from someone showing you. In fact, I think in the old days when everyone knit without patterns, it was easier than it is today because you learned by someone showing you, not by trying to convert words and flat pictures into 3D motions. I have noticed a lot of videos on the web, and I'm planning to add some to my own website as well. I think that might be one step closer than grandma showing you how to do it.

Posted by donna at Saturday, December 22, 2007 14:59:59

Thanks for addressing this. I'm a crocheter (designer, author, instructor) and have seen the issue from many perspectives. I have 40 years of crocheting experience and yet I still come across far too many patterns that are unclear or incorrect and are frustrating to work on. Many times it has only been after several rows that I figured out, "Oh, THAT's what she meant!" when a few words of explanation or a photo would have done the trick.

As an author of two crocheting books (third one in the works), I take the responsibility for correct, tested patterns very seriously. One crucial aspect seems to be to write the pattern as I go along, not try to figure it out when the item is done. I found out the hard way that not all great crocheters are good pattern writers--bought a couple of patterns from designers with the hope of including them in the books, only to find the patterns riddled with errors and omissions when I tried to make the stuff myself. If I can't make sense of the pattern, I sure couldn't publish it in my book. Of course I had paid for those designs. C'est la vie. It seems like most of the error-prone designers make the item and then write the pattern. Inevitably, they forget something, or make assumptions that the reader will know what they haven't bothered to explain. To me, that's a bit lazy and arrogant.

Other designers were very responsive to my questions, and we worked out the sticky areas together. It's refreshing to work with a good collaborator.

Recently I agreed to write up a pattern for a garment another designer made. I was given the finished item and a very sketchy pattern. The designer was helpful on the phone, answering my questions and explaining her methods, but we had to go back and forth a lot before I was certain the pattern was correct. I made the item in two different sizes to make sure it worked. No problem. However, after publication the designer forwarded me several emails from people who had purchased the pattern and were having trouble. I spent many hours helping them out because they said their finished product didn't look like the published photo. It was driving me crazy, since I knew that the pattern was perfect for the sample they sent me. Finally the designer and company owner figured out that it was because the item they had sent me wasn't the same one they used in the photo, and indeed parts of it were made differently. Ugh! I was glad to hear the explanation--it wasn't my mistake, I wrote the pattern fine for the item I had in front of me!-- but I was disappointed not to receive any apology for the ton of time I put in to help their customers (taking time from my own work), and the anxiety this caused me.

In all of these situations, if we just act in a caring way, everyone will benefit. We should care about the person buying our patterns and creating what we've designed. We should care about the magazine and book editors and authors who expect our patterns to be thoroughly tested so they don't have to. We should be kind to other designers who we buy things from for publication, giving them clear instructions, adequate time to pattern-test, and decent compensation. We should accept that everyone makes a mistake sometimes. If we have compassion and realistic expectations, much of the trouble wil melt away.

Posted by Sharon at Saturday, December 22, 2007 20:18:16

One of the things I enjoy about designing is seeing how other knitters and crocheters will use the pattern as a starting point and then make changes to suit their own wants and needs. I love it - there is an interaction happening, not just a designer dictating to a crafter.

I've been following the KnitML project (http://www.knitml.com/blog/) with some interest - I don't know enough about XML to really grasp how KnitML will work, but the concept of having a standardized format for pattern writing available is a good one. Japan requires that all published knit and crochet patterns must follow their national standards, which is one reason why they can be used by the Japanese-illiterate - the symbols are consistent, for starters. I don't think that having One Pattern Format To Rule Them All is the answer; different people learn and understand in different ways, as I am often reminded, but having firm standards to refer to can be very, very helpful.

I was taught to knit and crochet by my mother, who has never used a pattern. I made many an oddly shaped item as a child, and many opportunities to experiment, explore, and learn techniques (when I first read about "scrumbling" I thought it was funny that there were instructions for it - looked to me like what I was doing when I was five!). I enjoy reading knitting and crocheting books just for fun, and have been building a small library of old books and magazines. It surprised me at first that other people would want patterns for the things I was making - like my mother, I just winged it and had some fun. Learning to write patterns has been, well, a real learning experience for me. Some days it gets frustrating and I want to just chuck it and go back to making one-off pieces with no patterns. Other days I figure that I've got the skills and the talent that I can use to give something fun and maybe even practical to the community. So far those days have been winning, but trying to fit that into my daily life has been tricky. This industry is pretty unusual in that most of the designers do it on the side, and only a very few can do it full-time. I don't know how many crafters are aware of that.

Posted by mk at Sunday, December 23, 2007 02:49:14

When I was a beginner, I slavishly followed the pattern and had no idea how to deviate from it. I tackled some pretty fancy stuff and I'm proud of my crooked stitches and silly mistakes. But without a very well-proofed pattern, I would have been lost and discouraged from the get-go.

I'm glad there is proofing. I'm grateful for it.

Posted by isabel at Sunday, December 23, 2007 06:41:57

Sharon, I've had similar experiences and I agree about the different attitudes of authors. I think the tech editing process is collaborative and if an author won't or can't answer my questions, then I don't feel comfortable assuring them that their patterns are correct, even after my editing.

MK, I would like to see pattern -- especially crochet patterns -- in the US be less text heavy and detailed and more focused on the schematics and charts, just like the Japanese patterns. I think this is more work and expense for the publisher, especially when crochet charts are needed, so I'm not sure we'll ever see that here. If you're working on a book, I would strongly suggest that you try to write a book that tells people how to make things like you do without patterns. Why give them patterns if you don't use patterns? I just edited a book like that, where the authors don't use patterns and the publisher (I assume) made them provide standard crochet patterns. I thought it would have been a much better book if they'd explained how they actually made the things instead of shoe-horning them into standardized pattern formats. The book will be beautiful, but much less useful and educational than it could have been.

Isabel, proofing is a good thing. We all have to start somewhere! And we all have to decide what kind of knitter we will be. Some will want to make easy things and follow instructions, others will want to be more creative and adventurous. There are different books for each different kind of knitter.

Sorry I don't have more time to write or to respond to every comment. Got to work today. Great discussion!

Posted by donna at Sunday, December 23, 2007 08:57:46

Donna, I'm very happy about your coming books and look forward to learning more about them. For I'm hardly ever knitting from a pattern - I just can't be bothered to read the instructions (maybe I should get Japanese patterns). So I adore books that tell me the basic principle (like the Yarn Harlot with the sock instructions in Knitting Rules) and leave the details to me. When a pattern writer tells me that in order to devide 36 stitches evenly between 3 needles I need to put 12 stitches on each needle I feel insulted!

That said, even though I'm very unlikely to ever catch mistakes in knitting patterns, I would expect a book to be mainly correct. If a few errors creep in, well, that's life - but if there's three errors in each of the 20 patterns, then I'd feel cheated! If I pay good money I want a good product.

About the vitriolic e-mails - I believe most authors get them. A friend of mine who writes articles for an equestrian magazine certainly does. I suppose the only thing to do is correct the honest mistakes and just forget about the rest. And lastly - it's only knitting! I wrote manuals for flight simulators rather than aircraft because I was always terrified of making a critical mistake that would kill people - by comparison a missing yarn over is NOTHING!

Posted by Klara at Monday, December 24, 2007 06:12:45

Rather than reinvent the wheel, I'd push for getting James Walters' book, Crochet Workshop (the 1979 version) reprinted. I bought one in a used bookstore over 10 years ago and it was just what I was looking for. I loaned it out and have never gotten it back, but my state public library system does have a few copies, which is good because it is now darned expensive when it can be found for sale. James Walters is still teaching, but with a focus on scrumbling. The handouts he uses in his workshops are posted on his site (http://www.crochet.nu).

Posted by mk at Tuesday, December 25, 2007 14:37:47

MK, sounds like a great book to check out. I will see if my local library has it.

Posted by donna at Tuesday, December 25, 2007 18:18:06

There are errors, and then there are Errors. I can work through most pattern errors, however when a designer is recognised because of her non-standard construction then it is not so easy. I object to downloading pages and pages of corrections (Knitting Nature, Gathering of Lace to name two) after spending a sizable sum on a book. I realise that some errors are unavoidable - computer programs can do the strangest things when you try and alter formats (particularly Word). But there are times when I wonder if an item was test knitted. However, it must also be said that a good many knitters appear to be incapable of any independent actions. They request a pattern for the most basic of designs, and someone usually obliges.

Posted by Elvira at Saturday, December 29, 2007 00:19:45

My feeling is that if you are going to make/sell/offer for free a knitting pattern, then it should be accurate. If you want to encourage knitters to do it themselves and learn to design on their own, then get out of the pattern making business and just write about the fundamentals of design. I don't think you can have it both ways.

Posted by sarah at Sunday, December 30, 2007 20:37:32

Like you, Donna, when I come across errors in patterns, I adjust and move on. I purchase patterns for the design ideas and am grateful to to designer for having "done the math." When I buy or use a pattern, I know that someone has taken the time to work through the basic size, stitch, dimension issues to get to a finished project. I view pattern writing as a great service becuase it saves me time by giving me the basic information needed to get started. From there on, it is up to me to figure out how the pattern will look in a different size, yarn, fiber, gauge, etc. That is the joy of knitting; taking a basic pattern and adjusting it to my needs. I do admire the designer who can execute a flawless pattern, but I don't hold them responsible for my results. It's a lot like cooking: few of us follow recipes exactly, and most people filter out basic or extraneous information without taking offense at the author. I'm a knitter who enjoys the process as much as the product, sometimes even forgetting what projects I have completed. I enjoy the journey of discovery and try to skip the problems along the way. I may not achieve "perfection" in the results, but I learn something each time I cast on.

Posted by Barbara at Monday, December 31, 2007 11:25:08

Stephani, don't focus on "engineer." It was the first thing that came to the top of my head when I was thinking of smart people who might not have the bent of personality to spend a lot of time figuring out their own work-arounds for knitting patterns. I should probably apologise to engineers, but I really was just trying to give a ten-word example, rather than writing a whole paragraph about what I meant.

Forget the word "engineers." We all know people who follow the directions exactly and are paralysed by the thought of straying off the clearly-marked path. They aren't necessarily stupid, nor are they wrong. They just operate in their own way.

Posted by Marin at Monday, December 31, 2007 12:01:48

I read this posting with great interest, esp given the recent issues I have had with the Vogue Knitting Ultimate Socks Book.

I don't expect every knitting pattern to be perfect, however, I want to be sure that a certain amount of attention has been paid to ensure that the patterns are as accurate as possible. The more experienced knitters can find and fix issues without too much trouble, but new knitters are often not skilled enough to do this without help... which is great if you can get it. Informing the publisher is an important step to ensuring that the issues are fixed and to make the fixes available to other knitters.

The assumption is hat the errors are just in the knitting instruction, the charts or the schematics, but errors also happen in the yarn quantity and no one, no matter how experienced is going to like finding out that the jumper that they have been slaving over the the last 3 months, is going to be short a sleeve cap or collar.

Posted by Polly at Monday, December 31, 2007 12:10:21

All the talk about 'the knitter taking reponsibility' and 'thinking for ones self' surprises me a bit. Isn't the point of a pattern to provide instruction for someone who would otherwise not know how to make the item in question?

Not all women (people, I should say) can intuitively grasp clothing construction, and 'figure out' how to fix an error in a pattern. My sister for example; a woman of above average intelligence, and a good knitter for 25 years, who is utterly lost without a pattern on more complicated designs.

Not all humans have the same learning style, innate talents, or intelligence level. We are not all Elizabeth Zimmermans, nor posess the potential to be capable of imitating her style.

In my opinion, knitters should be able to trust a pattern, at least to a reasonable degree, and not be considered 'lemmings' or slaves to patterns, for doing so.

Certainly no one has the right to be uncivil with a designer over pattern errors, but I would have thought designers would like to hear about said errors in order to make corrections.

Posted by Lynda at Monday, December 31, 2007 15:49:53

I hope it's clear that I am not upset if people tell me or my publishers about errors. Sometimes it seems like people post comments without even reading what was actually written in the original post. Obviously we want to find out if there are any errors so we can post errata and fix the problems in future printings.

It's just that to me, it's much too stressful knowing that these errors can be lurking out there and it has made writing and editing knitting books no fun for me any more.

And I'm not writing for people who want to just follow instructions without thinking. That's just not what I'm interested in. There are plenty of designers out there who are interested in just writing pattern books, but that's not really anything that's ever held any interest for me at all, except for Kitty Knits and that was just for fun because I love cats. That said, all of my books are tech edited by professionals because I want to try to provide the most accurate information possible. That does not in any way mean that my books are perfect. That's not possible and if you expect to get a perfect book (about knitting or anything else for that matter), you're just setting yourself up for being disappointed.

Posted by donna at Monday, December 31, 2007 16:59:10

I agree that it is impossible to make a book perfect, because there are too many people and too many variables involved in the process. Most reputable publishers of any kind of book will try to make their books as error-free as possible, but that is a goal that cannot always be achieved. And yet consumers demand perfection.

In my business (educational publishing), books are expected to be absolutely, 100% error-free. In fact, some states (such as Texas) demand such perfect books that they will impose a fine of $10,000 per error that remains in the book. Now THAT is an incentive to make sure everything is accurate--and yet, errors still crop up. Books are still made by humans, and humans are fallible creatures.

So my advice is to let the publishers know when they make mistakes. If they receive an avalanche of emails and letters about errors, they'll sit up and take notice. It's a very competitive market out there, whether it's knitting books or history books, and no publisher wants a reputation for publishing shoddy books. If you find an error--even better, if you figure out how to correct the error--let them know!

Posted by Tracy WW at Monday, December 31, 2007 20:13:38

I have to disagree. Wanting people to be free from the tyranny of knitting patterns and following instructions word-for-word is a great goal. If you can look at something and feel confident to knit your own version (or duplicate it very closely), that's great. Not needing a pattern is a useful skill. But if you do choose to use a pattern, you have a right to expect that it's written as well as it can be. 'Knitters should be able to do without patterns' or 'I want knitters to be able to do without patterns' is not relevant to issues of pattern quality: not an excuse for poorly written patterns. I accept that occasional mistakes are unavoidable and would not disparage a book for having one here and there.
It would be lovely if everyone knew how to copy a garment just by looking at it. But how are you supposed to learn that? You generally become competent at making raglan jumpers by first doing one from a pattern. I don't think expecting knitters to think for themselves to some extent excuses designers from ensuring patterns are correct.
If you choose to knit from a pattern rather than designing your own garment you have a right to expect attention to detail: that every effort is made to publish an accurate pattern, and that errata, once discovered, will be provided (and corrected in future versions of the pattern).
Some knitters may be knitting a jumper for the first time: they have a right to expect that the pattern explains this well, rather than have to work out for themselves, from scratch or from confusing instructions, how to construct a jumper. For those who can do garments without patterns, did you learn the knit and purl stitches, increases and decreases, and from there work out all the principles of construction? Unlikely: it's been done before, and you learned from that.
'Know where the armholes and neck opening should be, about how wide a sleeve is...': how are they supposed to learn this if not from patterns?
I don't think it's good enough either to say 'it's okay to have so many mistakes, because books need to be edited and that's not easy.'
A publisher (not the pattern writer) should ensure that all the processes you describe do not affect the pattern. Publishers should not allow non-knitters to rephrase instructions without this being checked: if modifications must be made, let's highlight them to be reviewed by someone who actually knows how to knit to check they have not changed the meaning.
Illustrators, proof readers, and copy editors get the pattern after the pattern writer has checked the pattern, so the mistakes they may insert are excusable? No way! If a publisher provides the opportunity for this process to insert errors (and maybe it is unavoidable) they have a responsibility to have it reviewed again by someone who can ensure the pattern has not been altered (the writer, I imagine). You don't just say 'well it has to be formatted after submission, if that destroys the pattern or inserts mistakes what can we do?'
When people pay money, they expect a good product, and neglecting to ensure that that's what you sell is just lazy and bad business. With the huge number of free patterns out there, I rarely buy patterns individually, and magazines only sometimes. They sometimes have mistakes... but I think they largely contain fewer errors than published patterns (e.g. magazines/books). It's certainly very easy to correct an error in a blog post, but that doesn't excuse laziness for publishers (in fact gives them a greater responsibility to ensure correct patterns in the first place).
I'm frequently infuriated by the laziness/stupidity of new knitters.
But being unaware of the appropriate proportions or rates of decrease in certain types of shoulders is not lazy. Perhaps the frustrations with knitters expecting too much or being unable to follow a pattern is the inevitable result of large numbers of people adopting this hobby new within a short time frame, especially learning from the net and without a support (as opposed to being taught by other knitters in person)?
Sorry, but all I take from your post is that mistakes in knitting books/magazines is due to the editing process rather than laziness or pattern mistakes as originally submitted by the designeres, which I think most people know already.
As a slightly less relevant note, I find a compromise between stitch-by-stitch instructions and general guidelines to be helpful when I use patterns: e.g. for heels, you often get 'k1, ssk, knit to end of needle 1: needle 2, knit to last 3 stitches, k2tog...'. It's immensely quicker for a new knitter to grasp what's happening with a note beforehand that says 'you will be decreasing one stitch in from the side of the instep, both sides, once every second round'.
But when you write a pattern, you are writing it not for the people who have done what you think laudable (learn to do without a pattern) but those who have not yet learned to knit anything they want without patterns.

Posted by Sarah at Monday, December 31, 2007 22:59:01

Postscript: here's an interesting discussion of errata in knitting patterns
http://www.yarnharlot.ca/bl...

Posted by Sarah at Monday, December 31, 2007 23:10:21

Sarah, your last paragraph phrased perfectly what I wanted to say in my original post.

Donna, I for one certainly don't expect perfection in any book or pattern, and in fact I mentioned that I only expect patterns to be trusworthy to a reasonable degree. We are all only human, whether we be the designer/publisher, or the knitter who uses the pattern.

But it seems to me that it is being implied that if there are errors that a knitter can't figure out or compensate for, that the knitter is at fault or just not a good enough knitter.

You said in your original post: "I want knitters everywhere to learn to think for themselves and to question the authority of pattern writers. I want knitters to understand garment shapes and to be brave enough to forge forward if they find a misake in a pattern, making adjustments to fix the error. I want knitters to be free from the tyranny of patterns. I want knitters to have the confidence and skill to make things up and to knit their own designs, instead of always copying something they've found in a book."

That may be what you want, but that is not the reason someone bought your pattern. They bought it so that they could learn to make what you made, the way you made it. In fact, if your wish came true, no one would buy another pattern ever again.

Donna, I don't mean to seem critical of you at all, and I hope I haven't offended you. I respect you enormously. This is an interesting topic, and a good discussion with lots of food for thought.

Posted by Lynda at Tuesday, January 01, 2008 03:21:02

This is an thought provoking discussion - to say the least. But my feelings are simple. If you are going to sell something, it should be correct. I could never get away with selling a product that was incorrectly formulated, I'd have returns, complaints and horrendous costs. Why should it be different for any product? What woulf you do if you bought a loaf od bread that turned out to have metal bits scatterd throughout it? Pick them out and keep eating? I think not. You'd return the loaf to the store and demand a refund (if you didn't sue the bread company first). When I buy a book - I expect there will be no typo's. When I buy a pattern I expect there will be no mistakes. If I find one - I contact the publisher so they can add it to thier eratta sheet. And yes, I check EVERY pattern I knit for Eratta first.

I've been knitting for over 30 years, and I teach Freeform knitting and crochet. I'm perfectly capable of fixing a pattern on the fly, but that's not the point. When I sell a product - I make sure it's pristine when it leaves my warehouse. When I buy something - I expect the same.

I understand that sometimes people make mistakes. I don't take it for granted that those mistakes should be left uncorrected.

Posted by Claudia Dunitz at Thursday, January 03, 2008 14:00:55

Wow, that was a LOT of reading! I found it very instructive. I am a relatively new knitter, and because I have to know "how" and "why", I began spinning within months of learning how to knit. I was knitting "wrong". Yes, I really was. I am left handed, self taught, and all I could do was put the book against a mirror and try to do what I saw mirrored there. It didn't matter so much for the scarves I did first, as they just had interesting twists in the patterns! But it was dreadful when I tried hats. I found Elizabeth Zimmerman, continental knitting, and went wild! Did hats, then went straight for socks.

I have knit a couple of baby sweaters, but none for an adult yet. I can follow basic charts. I learned to spin, so I could understand yarn construction and behavior. That helped. But when I find a pattern that is all screwed up, I don't know enough yet, to disregard it and do a fix. Note that I said YET. But I do read like a mad thing, and I am so thankful to the videos some have put on YouTube, and other places. I am getting ready to do some actual sweaters. I won't touch a pattern with no schematic, except maybe EZ's patterns. I understand her math, I think, and her stuff is simple enough to get through without much error, I hope. If not, there are lots of helpers out there in internet-land.

I crave Donna's book on the Arctic Knitting, and the new one on the Folk Sweaters, because my husband is from Norway. But I worry that this stuff is over my head. It doesn't keep me from trying, but the cost of a lot of the yarns recommended is daunting for someone who is still learning. And I have heard so many horror stories about errors... I wanted the Vogue Knitting Socks book, but I have read that there are major major errors all over it... I have purchased a Lucy Neatby shawl pattern, and two of her videos/DVD's... and hope that will help.

I'm a very logical thinker, but it's really a different world, knitting, than anything else I know. I like schematics and measurements on a pattern, because it gives me a guideline to work against. I can design a complex quilt, pieced or appliqued, and have it work perfectly. There is no ripping back and doing it over if you've cut wrong on the fabric... and quilt materials cost more than sweaters!

Please, teach me HOW and WHY I am doing something. I really like the parable about giving a fish, vs teaching how to fish...

Thanks for listening.

Posted by Elaine at Tuesday, February 05, 2008 16:34:04

Hi Donna,
I would love to have the ability to figure knitting things out on my own. If all you can do is knit and purl... sometimes you don't have the skills to figure things out on your own.

I think you need to have the ability to see ahead to figure knitting things out.
And you have to be able to analyze what you see ahead and how to get there from "here".

The knitting tool box in my head is so small that I am almost embarrased to claim knitting as something that I love.

I try to learn somthing new from every single project. I try to enhance my knowledge by reading constantly and trying to understand what I read without becoming frustrated. I take class upon class trying to build my skill set. I am building it but....slowly.

I'm not intellectually challenged in most areas..but the knitting process messes with my head and at times my emotions.

It doesn't bother me so much when there is errata... it does bother me when I can't find the corrections.... I will need the corrections until I possess the skill set to see ahead so that I can knit fearlessly.

Thanks for allowing me to post.

Posted by Thomasean at Tuesday, April 15, 2008 17:45:06

Dear Donna, I sooo agree with you about teaching people, freeing them, to knit outside of strict pattern directions. I am a very new very hopeful designer and I am 52 years old! Suddenly I'm dreaming up new(ish) stitches and I run these new ideas into the ground so to speak. Mostly just hats and scarves but where would I even go with my ideas? I like the idea of a pattern which gives someone the freedom to use a wider range of yarns, different gauges, suggestions on what else can be done. That kind of thing. Like the famous EZ! There doesn't seem to be to many places that allow for this. Any way thank you for talking about such a wonderful idea. I am right there with you on this. Looking forward to a bright future of freer knitting.

Posted by Pam Murphy at Wednesday, March 31, 2010 19:02:25

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